Jason: Did you feel being an Australian band at a time when OZ bands were more or less pub rock with the exception of a few compared to the UK scene a great opportunity to be recognized and maybe change the direction of what Australian music was at that particular time?

Brian: Yeah I think when we started; youâve got to remember we started really back in high school kind of with the ultimate plan.

So yeah, which we were just like a funny kind of rocky sort of daggy band like any band in the 70s, and then we sort of went a bit New Wavish. Then by the time the 80s came around we were always trying to find what the new thing was and we didn't really like just being like the local bands, we just thought oh no, we were a little bit better than that.

Jason: Yes, true!

Brian: So in the 80s we were sort of this new wave band and I think we were called "Secret Agents" or something silly like that and we met John Justin from you know John Justin!... Yeah, and John kind of got us some breaks and he said your band should open for mine or something like that. We saw his band and we were blown away and thought that's the coolest thing we've ever seen. He also had a band called "The Modesty", same band but just a different keyboard player then they changed to "An Affair". And I remember just thinking that was the coolest band ever and being in awe of John and his presence on stage and so you know, probably an extreme influence by John. So the pub rock thing yeah, was definitely a bit scary because we decided we're going to be this hip European thing and it was really airy flairy with the make up and no big power guitar and it was all artsy fartsy and everything was sort of different.

We definitely thought that was it, and we just said this is the sound and this is going to work. And we thought if we could hold a band together, because that was our hardest problem with Pierre and I as members were never that dedicated, they'd leave. We would have a drummer and he would go its great then he would say "Oh, I've got a day job and I'm going to be cook or something".

Jason: Laughs

Brian: So I think by the time we got Pseudo Echo and we found Tony and we thought you know, we just thought we reckon were onto something but we always thought that!

Jason: Then in 1983 Molly Meldrum spotted Pseudo Echo playing a gig in Melbourne. Do you remember where that gig was held?

Brian: That was "The Jump Club"

Jason: Okay, was that in Collingwood?

Brian: Yes, Smith Street Collingwood. I think it's still there maybe

Jason: And in 1983 Molly decided that he would put Pseudo Echo on Countdown. Did you think "WOW" appearing on a show like Countdown without even having a record deal was a big opportunity?

Brian: You've got to remember Molly came along to a gig and he sort of knew us because we used to go to this club that he DJed at so he just knew our faces because we were regulars and we used to go every week and check out the scene, you know. So when somebody said come and see this band he kind of went "Oh those guys" like you know, I know these guys. So he was kind of a bit excited that he knew us and we looked all of about 13 and I think he was really surprised that I was a singer and you know, having this confidence on stage because when he knew me in the club I was like a little mouse you know. I was sort of the shy guy in the corner, so I think he was just blown away saying "I can't believe you're the lead vocalist and you're up there like a rock star doing your own thing."

So he was really impressed and he said you've got great songs and we were in awe just meeting him in the gig thinking 'Molly Meldrum's at our gig, how cool'.

Jason: Yeah, true

Brian: And it was only about a couple of weeks after that. The guy that was looking after us who was managing us called and said "Oh I've got you another gig, you will love this one! And then we said "Yeah, what is it?" and he goes "How about Countdown?" and we're like, we just went, 'What do you mean?!'

Jason: Laughs

Brian: He said "You're going to be on Countdown" and we were just like WOOOOOOAH! We were pretty like, just blown away because you know we used to watch the frickin show religiously.

Jason: So were you a huge fan of the show?

Brian: I wouldn't say a fan, but I used to watch it. I maybe used to pick on it perhaps (laughs) and just go oh that's crap. Oh you know, you learn and go ah we can do that, and that looks good and he's great and that's crap. So yeah, youâre learning from it more you know. But it was really exciting! But it was kind of, it wasn't exactly like being on the show when we did it

Jason: Yes, because it was a pre recorded video thing in the studio of the Listening demo

Brian: That's right, yes, yes. So we weren't really sure. So we walked in and there were all these things in the studio and they made this big sort of set.

Jason: Yes with the circles

Brian: Yeah, they made that especially for us. You know, they were really cool! Like Molly was like I found this band and their just great, you know - so they were soooo nice, all the crew. They were just like, we were there little pet project they found so they went all out and made this clip. And then they put it on the show and it made history you know

Jason: For sure! So getting signed. Did that lead from the Countdown studio performance clip?

Brian: Look I think it definitely you know, it put a bug up. But there's no doubt because you can play around in clubs forever in those days and no one knows about you. It's all about opportunities and then the people who are going to sign bands just need to know about you, and they didn't know about us. We were just this little band supporting another little band you know, and that's what we did so I think going on that. Definitely Molly going you know look at your record companies and you better wake up to yourselves because you have got this great band. But record companies are very cool about the way they get excited; they donât like to show they're excited; they don't like to show each other they have a vibe on that.

Because at the end of the day one of them is going to get it and the others don't. Like being in an auction, they all pretend they don't want the item so they sit back and let somebody make a move and that's kind of what happened. So it wasn't inundated with record companies.

Jason: So with "Autumnal Park" John Punter produced the album that had also previously produced Japan and Roxy Music.

Brian: Yep

Jason: How did that come about and were you excited by working with someone international who had a history with such great bands?

Brian: Yeah, that came around. I think Peter - the two Peters at EMI, Peter Dorkins and Peter Carbon - at the time um, I think they could see...

Jason: See the direction

Brian: Yeah, they said oh this band they've got this and they've got that. We need to get someone like that to pull it all together, and so they used there contacts to get a hold of John Punter. And so when they said you know we've got this guy, I mean they could have said we've got Humphrey Bear producing the album and we would have gone great, you sort of get excited regardless. So the funny thing with John, I think when we met John we were really surprised because he was way older and UN cool (Laughs)

Jason: So uncool, really

Brian: Oh yeah, so unfashionable. Like he was wearing a Hawaiian shirt

Jason: Oh really

Brian: And he kind of had a beard and was balding and glasses and we were like oh right, this is John Punter? Okaaaay. He was like about 50; you know and were just going oh Jesus.

Jason: That's funny

Brian: Because I remember we met Rupert Hine, I don't know if you have heard of him?

Jason: Oh yeah, "Misplaced Love".

Brian: Yeah, Yeah. We met him just before the album and he was one of the contenders. He probably would have been better I reckon.

Jason: Yeah, he's a great producer, he did Howard Jones

Brian: Did he. I don't know why we didn't because he was wrapped, he was excited. I remember he said you guys sound like Japan, Spandau Ballet, Duran Duran and Roxy Music put in a blender

Jason: Heaven!

Brian: And we were going "Ah, say some more"! (Laughs) We were just loving it!!! You know, obvious rip offs, obviously but you know. Um he just loved us I remember, he was just raving about us and he obviously wanted the gig but I donât know what happened, maybe he wasnât around or wasnât available but John came up somehow. John was kind of an unusual producer though, he was more like the headmaster than our producer you know

Jason: Okay

Brian: And also the first single was produced by Peter Dorkins, who was also like a bloody, they're way too old! Like I mean, we learnt from them, but yeah.

Jason: And were you happy with the result?

Brian: Yes and No

Jason: Okay...

Brian: I think I expected a whole lot more. You know what I expected? I expected what I do to a band when I produce them, that's what I expected

Jason: I see

Brian: That's why I became a producer

Jason: But I guess at the time you all were young...

Brian: Oh yeah, at the time I didn't have a clue. I mean I had a clue but I didn't really have experience at it so at least I had sense enough to shut up and listen even though he said "Oh we're doing this and we're doing that" and I definitely just went hmmm okay, we'll chop that whole section out!... Alright? Okay, yep

Not sort of overly joyed about some of the things.<

Jason: Okay

Brian: But I definitely learnt from them and look I got results. The album's worked and so you can't deny that.

Jason: And you recorded that here in Australia not overseas, yes?

Brian: Yeah that was recorded here

Jason: Yeah in Sydney, in 301

Brian: Yeah, in 301. It wasn't you know really that legendary studio. It's still got the same name but it's not the same studio anymore.

Jason: And in the early days when the lyrics were much more mysterious and darker, where did you get the inspiration from writing wise?

Brian: I think nowhere, I think just my own head. Because I actually till this day, I'm very ignorant to lyrics and I'm a bit embarrassed about it. It's a bad thing but then again sometimes a good thing.

Jason: Okay

Brian: For some reason I don't listen to words, I can't listen to them. I don't understand what they're saying. I hear the sound, the texture of the voice and I hear everything about the music but I don't hear the actual words. It's like when I look at books I look at pictures and I don't read the words

Jason: Yes, I tend to do that too

Brian: I've got a million books that I don't know any words. I mean I've got books about this and that and all I know is the pictures. Occasionally when I'm really bored I'll read the words so with lyrics it's bizarre, you know. And like I said it's not a good thing, I don't think it's good. I'm a bit ashamed of it almost and I feel like I should have read and I would have understood a whole lot more, I feel like I've just lived half of my life with my head in the sand almost. It's like wake up, this song is about this and you didn't even know, you know? It's bizarre!

Jason: See I feel the the lyrics on Autumnal Park are quite brilliant actually!

Brian: Well I'm glad to hear! I always thought they were shit!

Jason: Oh really!!!

Brian: Yeah, sort of looking back I think what the hell am I saying here, you know

Jason: Okay, see to me take a track like Walkaway. I think when you listen to the lyrics there is definitely a story behind it

Brian: Yeah. But you know? there's not! None of them really say much at all.

Jason: Really

Brian: Like they're just really emotional, just spurning out words and then pushing them into a story. But there always very, there actually more literal that metaphorical and most people read them as metaphorical

Jason: What about something like "Lonely Without You" from Love an Adventure, was that a real situation that happened in your life or was it just basically a love song

Brian: Just made up, yeah made up just shmaltzsy. I guess you know, I was travelling a lot and I used to think about that. Like leaving your girlfriend behind and you write words. But that album is a lot more literal, all the lyrics are

Jason: The second album?

Brian: Yep

Jason: Okay

Brian: Autumnal Park is very artsy fartsy

Jason: Yes, and that's why I love it!

Jason: No, sorry. No, No, No! You have it all wrong Brian. Pseudo's lyrics were brilliant, especially on Autumnal Park.

Brian: Look there's no real messages that's the thing I'm a bit spewing because I think when you've got that moment you should embrace it and you should really have something to say

Jason: But see this is how I feel. You may say that about Boom Crash Opera or Real Life and how they had more of a message. But you can say that because you are the one that wrote these songs and recorded them. But I think from a listener and fan point of view I actually think that the stuff you wrote was more darker and I actually feel that on Autumnal especially that you're lyrics have more of a message behind the songs than what they did. Though Real Life had great lyrics as well.

Brian: They weren't calculated or anything if you know what I mean. They were very much what I was at the time

Jason: Okay

Brian: And like my daughter writes very similar lyrics

Jason: Oh does she

Brian: Well she used to but I don't know if she does anymore. I haven't looked through her books for years

Jason: Laughs!

Brian: But she used to write all these great lyrics. And my wife and I would be looking through them and would be thinking, what is this? This dark storm of a cloud brood over the... And I'm just going its very poetic but I think she sort of writes how I used to. It was kind of almost literal, she's really thinking about what she's actually saying.

Jason: Wow

Brian: I don't think I was very metaphorical by any means but they probably do sound that way. But I think at the time I was really saying what I said like "Living in A Dream" or any of those ones that sound wacky. They just were wacky

Jason: But they worked

Brian: Yeah, look that's what the 80s were all about wasn't it. It was almost more about the sound of the phrase than the meaning. That's how I mainly wrote lyrics. They had to sound kind of cool.

Like I never said the word love until the second album. I just thought it was uncool to say, I just didn't think it was appropriate. I don't think I ever said baby or of that like "yeah baby". You know there was just none of that.

Jason: See this is why I think the lyrics on the first album are quite intelligent because it's not like a typical kind of "You're my baby and I love you" and all that nonsense.

Brian: Hmmmmm. Yeah that's right, there's none of that. I would have never got that personal in that side of it. They were much more kind of gothic, yeah...

Jason: Yeah, well I guess being a synth band. The bands that you basically modelled yourself on didn't really talk about that love stuff either on their early work till later.

Brian: No, no that's right. It would be way to sort of the wrong scene.

Jason: Now, I don't know if you can remember this... I hope you can! When you performed "Stranger In Me" on the 10th Anniversary show of Countdown do you remember girls chucking confetti at your mouth and you looking somewhat annoyed and maybe pissed off by it, may I add rightfully so!

Brian: I didn't know if I was pissed off

Jason: Whenever I see that performance I just laugh and think what were those girls thinking?

Brian: Yeah, I remember that though. Look I've got to say at the time when we were doing all that stuff I was really never contented with the reaction to the band and the young screaming chicks and all of that. It was just so not what I wanted

Jason: Okay

Brian: I wanted adults to like our music or people of my own age. Look they probably did but it just took 10 years to realise it or whatever

Jason: But I guess Countdown was more, you know

Brian: It was a kid's show, and I hated that about the band. I hated the fact that we just appealed to young little girls. Which is why I probably enjoy so much touring now because all those little girls are now grown up. And the guys and girls speak to me like an adult and don't go youâre so cute and I want to kiss you. They say hey, I love your music and that's the reaction I wanted back then

Jason: Okay but I guess those fans still love your music now so obviously the music was a part of it

Brian: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a part of their life, like The Wiggles would be with somebody now

Jason: I guess also at the time you were good looking young guys who appealed to teenage girls

Brian: Oh look I can see that

Jason: Because I guess the girls that thought Duran Duran were cute thought Brian Canham was the Australian version that was cute

Brian: Oh I guess that's why sometimes I possibly looked a bit you know, like Jesus. I'm singing a song here and we've done all this production and I'm really into it and no one is really giving a shit. You just think we're cute and chucking your undies at me, you know. So I was always a little bit cynical about it. Look I really raced it though, I really did. I knew that it was part of it, and it was part of the course to where I wanted to be eventually. So I didn't ever be a dickhead and one of those anti heroes and you know, tells everybody to fuck off or anything like that. It just wasn't me to do that, but I know insight I was never really happy with that. So that's possibly why that sort of reaction would have been happening.

Jason: Now after Autumnal Park was over and Pseudo Echo went into the next phase being "Love an Adventure" Tony had left the band. And even though Anthony Argirio played drums on the album "Love an Adventure" he too left the band after the release of "Don't Go". What led to Tony and Anthony leaving the band?

Brian: Okay um, Tony... we kind of just out grew him really. He was kind of chucked out.

Jason: Oh really?

Brian: It's a really mean n way of putting it but of course, yes he was.

Jason: Why was he chucked out?

Brian: Oh well okay. Firstly he was 8 years older than us and not a real groovy 8 years older than us. I mean I'm 15 years older than Ben who is playing with us now and we seem to still you know. I mean I know I'm an old fart compared to him so I don't try to get to hip with him.

Jason: How old are you now?

Brian: I'm going to be 44 in July

Jason: Okay

Brian: So Tony was a fair bit older than us and he just acted like an older guy. He was a bit older in his ways, you know he'd get the gear on and heâd look like a New Romantic but he really wasn't

Jason: Laughs!!!... Was he a good keyboardist in your opinion?

Brian: No, he wasn't very good, he was a guitar player. He meant well and we really helped us immensely with our first sound. And just the way that he knew how to rip off riffs, and he could sort of get the sound like Japan or you know, just play riffs a bit like them. When I listen back now probably, possibly a bit too close but you know. That was his thing. He's bringing the kind of sound to us so we really are eternally great full for him but we just out grew him. When we changed direction to "Love an Adventure" I'm writing all these keyboard parts, like a great example is "Love an Adventure" the title track. Like the parts that I wrote on that, I just had them in my little 4 track studio and I remember writing these kind of wacky kind of bendy chords and all of this and Tony couldn't even play it.

Jason: Really?

Brian: He was really struggling because he wasn't a keyboard player. But as soon as it went outside of what he knew he was going oh shit. So we did it a few times live and it was just full of clangors and even a song like "Living in a Dream". He couldn't get certain bits right, and he just couldn't play anything. And it was just a physical thing, he just wasn't cutting it. He was making a lot of mistakes, a few is alright if you laugh it off.

Jason: So Tony was still involved in the very early beginnings of writing for "Love an Adventure"?

Brian: Yeah I'd written a couple, the ones I wrote on my own.

Jason: Okay, like "Living in a Dream"?

Brian: Yeah, "Living In A Dream" and there might have been another one too. But there was a couple that we tried with him and I remember they were like, shit what are we going to do?

Jason: "Living in a Dream" was written even before Autumnal Park wasn't it?

Brian: Yeah

Jason: An did Anthony Agirio leave basically because of the pressure, what was the real story there?

Brian: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Jason: Because he was one seriously great drummer!

Brian: He was a great drummer and we loved him, he was a great guy. I'll tell you what happened... Anthony being the individual that he was. That real sort of asexual sort of vibe

Jason: Yes and how I loved that about him

Brian: Yeah he was and I love him. I reckon he was, he added so much to the band

Jason: Yeah definitely

Brian: But you've got to remember Pseudo Echo was under extreme pressure to cross over to the mainstream

Jason : Yep okay, the usual story

Brian: You know, our sales were· You could see it was going to double and it was going to be big because we had this appeal but we were sectioning off our appeal by being to camp and to yeah

Jason: Well especially because you were in Australia, as Australia has the habit of being closed minded at the best of times unfortunately!

Brian: Oh totally! Because we were stuck here. But in the UK who cares?!

Jason: Yeah exactly, true

Brian: So we were screwed because of that. So you know, managements pushing us "You know, you've gotta listen to this new band" at the time white ass band that's a rock band and we're going blah blah blah, oh it's all happening and you know. So we were sort of under this pressure and every artist wants to be successful and sometimes you drop a bit of your art you know, for the challenge

Jason: Yes, I know exactly what you are saying, believe me!

Brian: Because the challenge is still good even thought it's a bit more mainstream but it's still a challenge. You'll be going well wow I would love to be able to sell double the amount of units or whatever. So your still sort of spurt it on and youâre still liking it. And that's really what happened with Anthony, he was just the odd guy out. Anthony was still out there wacky, you know hair here and shit coming out of here and there and where and all that. And he was out there as a personality, he was crazy you know. And we had this straight management company you know, Weatley organization and all that and they were just dead straight

Jason: Though your look in the very beginning was still stylish and out there for Australia

Brian: Yeah but I was a very sort of straight guy.

Jason: Yeah, I guess Anthony was a lot more camp which I loved

Brian: Yeah, like someone would sit down with me and have a business meting and I could look crazy but I was really straight. Where as Anthony would be out there with the fairies and he could say crazy stuff and the management would say this and that, you know. And I remember Glen, he was a prick for saying this but I remember him getting us aside

Jason: Glen Wheatley?

Brian: Yeah, saying "You know that bloody Anthony, you know mate I could introduce you to anybody and I'm proud of you and I know you'll be good and you can meet the head of this agency and I'm confident you will say the right stuff". But with Anthony I'm just scared all the time. And also the pressure of our success was really taking its toll on him

Jason: Oh okay

Brian: He didn't like it, he just DID NOT like the way it was a phony scene and every wanker at the record company is going "Oh I love you guys". And you just feel like going you would have chucked cans at us a couple of years ago. You know Anthony could see, I mean we could all see it but you have to deal with it and Anthony didn't like dealing with it. He didn't like dealing with all that phony stuff and he just started losing it on stage, he was forgetting parts of the songs

Jason: Oh okay, poor lad

Brian: He was really starting to break down with his playing. And that's where I drew the line, if you can't really cut it...

Jason: So he basically decided to stop

Brian: Sort of yeah. I think he knew, you know. We'd been working a lot at James Leigh's house and we met Vince, and we discovered that Vince was so much more kind of on the level. We thought jezz he's a good guy, but we weren't thinking hey lets get rid of Anthony but I think Anthony just sensed it.

Jason: I have to say though I think Anthony was a better drummer than Vince in many ways

Brian: Oh he was a much better drummer by a million miles. Anthony's kind of like Darren who has been playing with us the past few years. That's what I love about Darren, he reminds me so much of Anthony.

Jason: Yeah, Darren really plays in the same vain and is definitely a great drummer for sure.

Brian: Yep, they are really similar. But um, yeah Vince was never as good a drummer but he could remember the parts. And to us then, because we weren't that experienced we probably didn't notice it

Jason: But did Anthony remember the parts before the pressure more?

Brian: Yep, yep. He was fine. Once the pressure was on he was just hopeless

Jason: So once Tony left James Leigh joined through a newspaper add

Brian: Yeah, we put an ad in Juke maybe or one of those and I think Karen still has it.

Jason: And how many guys auditioned till you decided James was the one?

Jason: Because James was really young at the time!

Brian: 16

Jason: Yeah 16, wow

Brian: So we got a lot of applications and our manager used to sort of look through them. You know he would say he looks like this and he's too fat and he's too tall and you know. I mean you're talking about a band that's already got a gold record and has a swag of fans.

Jason: And yes, a top ten hit

Brian: You can just go oh yeah were going to get the big fat guy in or the guy with the funny haircut, they had to look right.

Jason: Because James ended up becoming a popular chap

Brian: Yep, he just became the band.

Jason: Yeah, totally

Jason: Laughs!

Brian: And sometime you would go "What if we fix that or do that?" And so James kind of got on the list, it was really funny because all the guys we auditioned to take over Tony's place were all really cool looking, they were really groovy. I remember just going "Oh please be a good player" and they were all crap!

Jason: But James looked cool and could play so that was good!

Brian: Yeah. They were all that school of their fancy programs. Knew all about their DX7s and knew all about this and that's all great. But how about play some chords, and can you play some scales? And they were like no, they were just tragic.

Jason: Well for James to be a 16 year old he was rather good

Brian: Oh James just walked in. He was the funniest looking guy and he came in with his attempted Pseudo Echo style on and he had his dad with him (Laughs)

Jason: Really, how funny!

PART TWO coming soon...

Interview conducted by Jason Grech, Copyright © 2006 www.countdownmemories.com